SCREAMING IN ALL CAPS

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BOOB TUBE

ANIMALS!

CONCESSIONS TO THE PATRIARCHY

MISCELLANEOUS PISS OFFS

OUR BODIES, OURSELVES

RAPE CULTURE

SHE SAID, HE SAID, SHE SAID

THE WORLD GETS IT RIGHT

WORDS HAVE MEANINGS

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How We Talk About Sexual Assault

Poor Persecuted Pervert?

Katherine on October 28, 2014 at 11:59 PM I do not believe there is such a thing as “THE” truth in this situation (or in any, perhaps). Those involved have each spoken THEIR truth. It is now(or will be) in the hands of the court to decide how this will be dealt with according to the finer points of Canadian laws. A decision will be made, and at least one person will not be happy with that decision. All will have suffered emotionally. Many people will feel, whatever the decision, that “justice has not been done.” Everyone has their idea of what is justice. And everyone has their idea of what has “really” gone on. Yet none of us on this discussion thread know the facts that have yet to be presented; still, everyone has an opinion. Once the court has pronounced, then opinions would be more grounded in fact and discussions more meaningful.Then, when we speak of victims, we will know who we are referring to.Yet again, maybe everyone is a victim–of the media (inculding social media).

I do not believe there is such a thing as “THE” truth in this situation (or in any, perhaps). Those involved have each spoken THEIR truth. It is now(or will be) in the hands of the court to decide how this will be dealt with according to the finer points of Canadian laws. A decision will be made, and at least one person will not be happy with that decision. All will have suffered emotionally. Many people will feel, whatever the decision, that “justice has not been done.”

Everyone has their idea of what is justice. And everyone has their idea of what has “really” gone on. Yet none of us on this discussion thread know the facts that have yet to be presented; still, everyone has an opinion. Once the court has pronounced, then opinions would be more grounded in fact and discussions more meaningful.Then, when we speak of victims, we will know who we are referring to.Yet again, maybe everyone is a victim–of the media (inculding social media).

Steve on October 28, 2014 at 6:30 PM Let’s leave this all in the hands of courts. The truth will come out Auntie Alias on October 28, 2014 at 10:39 PM Not if the women don’t report it to the police which it sounds like they won’t. However, The Star says they are interviewing even more women who approached them and they are assessing their stories. Stay tuned. This might end up in criminal court yet.

Steve on October 28, 2014 at 6:30 PM Let’s leave this all in the hands of courts. The truth will come out

Let’s leave this all in the hands of courts. The truth will come out

Auntie Alias on October 28, 2014 at 10:39 PM Not if the women don’t report it to the police which it sounds like they won’t. However, The Star says they are interviewing even more women who approached them and they are assessing their stories. Stay tuned. This might end up in criminal court yet.

Not if the women don’t report it to the police which it sounds like they won’t. However, The Star says they are interviewing even more women who approached them and they are assessing their stories. Stay tuned. This might end up in criminal court yet.

Wendy B. on October 28, 2014 at 10:12 AM Restated, you cannot consent to assault, just as you cannot give away your human rights.

Restated, you cannot consent to assault, just as you cannot give away your human rights.

Britt on October 28, 2014 at 8:33 AM I hope whatever did happen to the four (so far) women comes out- so people can stop victim blaming. It’s hurting a lot of people right now… any person that has been in a situation like this knows the struggle and is feeling it strongly again during all of this. People want justice for Jian Ghomeshi- all I want is a bit of unbiased compassion for the women coming forward. Give them a chance, Jian had his.

I hope whatever did happen to the four (so far) women comes out- so people can stop victim blaming. It’s hurting a lot of people right now… any person that has been in a situation like this knows the struggle and is feeling it strongly again during all of this.

People want justice for Jian Ghomeshi- all I want is a bit of unbiased compassion for the women coming forward. Give them a chance, Jian had his.

PoliticalTruth (@PoliticalTruth) on October 28, 2014 at 7:55 AM Should we believe them? This is a serious question, and there is an important reason why I ask. If we live in a society where you are assumed innocent until proven guilty, if someone accuses another person of a wrongful act and we believe them, we have assumed the guilt of the accused. Can we both believe the accuser and believe the accused? While this might be more possible with “lesser” crimes, at the level of sexual assault, the vileness of the offense, if the accusation is believed, has dramatic impacts on how we view the accused. Of course, this in no way condones some of the reaction we have seen women receive, those reactions (threats, harassment, etc) are themselves crimes, and should be punished. But I think there is a real problem with the issue of belief and the assumption of innocence. Off the top of my head I don’t know what the resolution to this problem is, but it seems to be an inherent contradiction within our system. Jen on October 28, 2014 at 10:35 AM It is my understanding that the presumption of innocence until proven guilty is proclaimed in the court of law, as it should be. It doesn’t mean that individuals can not, or even should not hold a belief about another person’s guilt before it is proven, though in my opinion most people are in no position to make any assumptions either way. PoliticalTruth (@PoliticalTruth) on October 28, 2014 at 11:35 AM I mostly agree Jen, I would like to think that that principle is so important for the courts because we as a society think it is an important principle, and would emulate it ourselves. But, regardless, the latter part of your comment is key … none of us are in any position to know the truth. I can’t understand why anyone says we should believe anyone without evidence to support either. Should we assume Jian is innocent because he is a cool dude and a bro and offers cool insight in a soothing voice ? Hells no. Should we believe his accusers because they say things happen that we have no evidence of ? I can’t see why either … lcsimmons on October 30, 2014 at 2:18 PM Innocent until proven guilty works for your argument if the responsibility of guilt solely relies on the court. The court generally brings in witnesses to try to prove that guilt and they move forward from there. When it’s a crime dealing with two people, the accused and the accuser – innocent until proven guilty still stands but the situation changes. Instead of a witness you have a victim. From a public reaction stand point, when someone is robbed at gunpoint and they know the person who did it, we generally don’t put the accuser on character trial. We look at the person who might have been holding the gun. Why is it so difficult for our society to do the same with rape and sexual assault.

Should we believe them? This is a serious question, and there is an important reason why I ask. If we live in a society where you are assumed innocent until proven guilty, if someone accuses another person of a wrongful act and we believe them, we have assumed the guilt of the accused. Can we both believe the accuser and believe the accused? While this might be more possible with “lesser” crimes, at the level of sexual assault, the vileness of the offense, if the accusation is believed, has dramatic impacts on how we view the accused. Of course, this in no way condones some of the reaction we have seen women receive, those reactions (threats, harassment, etc) are themselves crimes, and should be punished. But I think there is a real problem with the issue of belief and the assumption of innocence.

Off the top of my head I don’t know what the resolution to this problem is, but it seems to be an inherent contradiction within our system.

Jen on October 28, 2014 at 10:35 AM It is my understanding that the presumption of innocence until proven guilty is proclaimed in the court of law, as it should be. It doesn’t mean that individuals can not, or even should not hold a belief about another person’s guilt before it is proven, though in my opinion most people are in no position to make any assumptions either way. PoliticalTruth (@PoliticalTruth) on October 28, 2014 at 11:35 AM I mostly agree Jen, I would like to think that that principle is so important for the courts because we as a society think it is an important principle, and would emulate it ourselves. But, regardless, the latter part of your comment is key … none of us are in any position to know the truth. I can’t understand why anyone says we should believe anyone without evidence to support either. Should we assume Jian is innocent because he is a cool dude and a bro and offers cool insight in a soothing voice ? Hells no. Should we believe his accusers because they say things happen that we have no evidence of ? I can’t see why either …

It is my understanding that the presumption of innocence until proven guilty is proclaimed in the court of law, as it should be. It doesn’t mean that individuals can not, or even should not hold a belief about another person’s guilt before it is proven, though in my opinion most people are in no position to make any assumptions either way.

PoliticalTruth (@PoliticalTruth) on October 28, 2014 at 11:35 AM I mostly agree Jen, I would like to think that that principle is so important for the courts because we as a society think it is an important principle, and would emulate it ourselves. But, regardless, the latter part of your comment is key … none of us are in any position to know the truth. I can’t understand why anyone says we should believe anyone without evidence to support either. Should we assume Jian is innocent because he is a cool dude and a bro and offers cool insight in a soothing voice ? Hells no. Should we believe his accusers because they say things happen that we have no evidence of ? I can’t see why either …

I mostly agree Jen, I would like to think that that principle is so important for the courts because we as a society think it is an important principle, and would emulate it ourselves. But, regardless, the latter part of your comment is key … none of us are in any position to know the truth. I can’t understand why anyone says we should believe anyone without evidence to support either. Should we assume Jian is innocent because he is a cool dude and a bro and offers cool insight in a soothing voice ? Hells no. Should we believe his accusers because they say things happen that we have no evidence of ? I can’t see why either …

lcsimmons on October 30, 2014 at 2:18 PM Innocent until proven guilty works for your argument if the responsibility of guilt solely relies on the court. The court generally brings in witnesses to try to prove that guilt and they move forward from there. When it’s a crime dealing with two people, the accused and the accuser – innocent until proven guilty still stands but the situation changes. Instead of a witness you have a victim. From a public reaction stand point, when someone is robbed at gunpoint and they know the person who did it, we generally don’t put the accuser on character trial. We look at the person who might have been holding the gun. Why is it so difficult for our society to do the same with rape and sexual assault.

Innocent until proven guilty works for your argument if the responsibility of guilt solely relies on the court. The court generally brings in witnesses to try to prove that guilt and they move forward from there. When it’s a crime dealing with two people, the accused and the accuser – innocent until proven guilty still stands but the situation changes. Instead of a witness you have a victim. From a public reaction stand point, when someone is robbed at gunpoint and they know the person who did it, we generally don’t put the accuser on character trial. We look at the person who might have been holding the gun. Why is it so difficult for our society to do the same with rape and sexual assault.

Auntie Alias on October 28, 2014 at 3:28 AM I read online comments on a few articles and was pleasantly surprised. Normally, the accusations of lying women account for the majority of posts but not this time. The National Post is usually packed with misogynists and MRAs and yet voices of reason piped up for a change. (Good old Christie Blatchford sided with Jian, of course, and was actually called out by some commenters. I was agog!) One trend that’s unfortunately persistent is the demand that alleged victims go to the police. I’d think long and hard about that if it happened to me and would almost certainly decline if the perpetrator was a public figure. Along with Carla Ciccone, the last few years have seen online harassment cause Audrie Potts and Rehtaeh Parsons to take their lives and GamerGate has spawned doxing and rape, death, and bomb threats against women speaking out about misogyny in the gaming community causing two of them to flee their homes. It’s not just the prospect of harassment and threats; it’s the possibility of being treated badly by the police. That would be crushing. There are still too many stories in the media of police treating sexual assault victims like criminals, asking inappropriate and victim-blamng questions, trying to discourage them from filing charges, and doing half-assed or no investigations. Hopefully they’re not all like that but with so many horror stories floating around, it would be quite a risk emotionally. The worst aspect of this trend is attempts to shame victims who choose not to come forward and to hold them responsible for letting an alleged predator roam free. My reaction to that is to stop the victim-blaming and help dispel rape culture if you want the reporting rates to rise. Lily Jane on October 28, 2014 at 6:32 AM If you report sexual assault to the police, you also risk being labelled a victim forever, and I think people underestimate how disempowering it can be to be pitied (and that’s to say nothing of the toxicity of victim-blaming). After being date-raped by a colleague, I was too scared that everybody I knew would look at me and just see “rape victim” rather than the person I wanted to be recognized as. Now, 12 years in retrospect, I wish I had been braver than I was in the wake of that (violent) assault. All possibility of evidence is long lost in my case, but if I learned other women had been assaulted by this guy, you bet I’d agree to speak to a journalist about it. Auntie Alias on October 28, 2014 at 11:29 AM I hadn’t considered that aspect, Lily Jane. I’m so sorry that happened to you. I agree that the knowledge that others were attacked by the same person would be a compelling reason to speak out. Years ago I was groped by an old man I barely knew who knocked on my door after following me home. I didn’t know then what I know now about rape culture so when I considered whether to go to the police, it boiled down to whether it was worth it. I decided it wasn’t and figured I could shrug it off which I did successfully for a decade. I began experiencing anxiety when the memories came back. A couple years later I was floored by his death notice in the paper and quite the media hoopla about what a wonderful guy this man had been – a real community leader. Gag. This was something I hadn’t known. I was so grateful I hadn’t gone to the police because it could have turned into a media circus and I might have been subjected to retaliation.

I read online comments on a few articles and was pleasantly surprised. Normally, the accusations of lying women account for the majority of posts but not this time. The National Post is usually packed with misogynists and MRAs and yet voices of reason piped up for a change. (Good old Christie Blatchford sided with Jian, of course, and was actually called out by some commenters. I was agog!)

One trend that’s unfortunately persistent is the demand that alleged victims go to the police. I’d think long and hard about that if it happened to me and would almost certainly decline if the perpetrator was a public figure. Along with Carla Ciccone, the last few years have seen online harassment cause Audrie Potts and Rehtaeh Parsons to take their lives and GamerGate has spawned doxing and rape, death, and bomb threats against women speaking out about misogyny in the gaming community causing two of them to flee their homes.

It’s not just the prospect of harassment and threats; it’s the possibility of being treated badly by the police. That would be crushing. There are still too many stories in the media of police treating sexual assault victims like criminals, asking inappropriate and victim-blamng questions, trying to discourage them from filing charges, and doing half-assed or no investigations. Hopefully they’re not all like that but with so many horror stories floating around, it would be quite a risk emotionally.

The worst aspect of this trend is attempts to shame victims who choose not to come forward and to hold them responsible for letting an alleged predator roam free. My reaction to that is to stop the victim-blaming and help dispel rape culture if you want the reporting rates to rise.

Lily Jane on October 28, 2014 at 6:32 AM If you report sexual assault to the police, you also risk being labelled a victim forever, and I think people underestimate how disempowering it can be to be pitied (and that’s to say nothing of the toxicity of victim-blaming). After being date-raped by a colleague, I was too scared that everybody I knew would look at me and just see “rape victim” rather than the person I wanted to be recognized as. Now, 12 years in retrospect, I wish I had been braver than I was in the wake of that (violent) assault. All possibility of evidence is long lost in my case, but if I learned other women had been assaulted by this guy, you bet I’d agree to speak to a journalist about it. Auntie Alias on October 28, 2014 at 11:29 AM I hadn’t considered that aspect, Lily Jane. I’m so sorry that happened to you. I agree that the knowledge that others were attacked by the same person would be a compelling reason to speak out. Years ago I was groped by an old man I barely knew who knocked on my door after following me home. I didn’t know then what I know now about rape culture so when I considered whether to go to the police, it boiled down to whether it was worth it. I decided it wasn’t and figured I could shrug it off which I did successfully for a decade. I began experiencing anxiety when the memories came back. A couple years later I was floored by his death notice in the paper and quite the media hoopla about what a wonderful guy this man had been – a real community leader. Gag. This was something I hadn’t known. I was so grateful I hadn’t gone to the police because it could have turned into a media circus and I might have been subjected to retaliation.

If you report sexual assault to the police, you also risk being labelled a victim forever, and I think people underestimate how disempowering it can be to be pitied (and that’s to say nothing of the toxicity of victim-blaming). After being date-raped by a colleague, I was too scared that everybody I knew would look at me and just see “rape victim” rather than the person I wanted to be recognized as. Now, 12 years in retrospect, I wish I had been braver than I was in the wake of that (violent) assault. All possibility of evidence is long lost in my case, but if I learned other women had been assaulted by this guy, you bet I’d agree to speak to a journalist about it.

Auntie Alias on October 28, 2014 at 11:29 AM I hadn’t considered that aspect, Lily Jane. I’m so sorry that happened to you. I agree that the knowledge that others were attacked by the same person would be a compelling reason to speak out. Years ago I was groped by an old man I barely knew who knocked on my door after following me home. I didn’t know then what I know now about rape culture so when I considered whether to go to the police, it boiled down to whether it was worth it. I decided it wasn’t and figured I could shrug it off which I did successfully for a decade. I began experiencing anxiety when the memories came back. A couple years later I was floored by his death notice in the paper and quite the media hoopla about what a wonderful guy this man had been – a real community leader. Gag. This was something I hadn’t known. I was so grateful I hadn’t gone to the police because it could have turned into a media circus and I might have been subjected to retaliation.

I hadn’t considered that aspect, Lily Jane. I’m so sorry that happened to you. I agree that the knowledge that others were attacked by the same person would be a compelling reason to speak out.

Years ago I was groped by an old man I barely knew who knocked on my door after following me home. I didn’t know then what I know now about rape culture so when I considered whether to go to the police, it boiled down to whether it was worth it. I decided it wasn’t and figured I could shrug it off which I did successfully for a decade.

I began experiencing anxiety when the memories came back. A couple years later I was floored by his death notice in the paper and quite the media hoopla about what a wonderful guy this man had been – a real community leader. Gag. This was something I hadn’t known. I was so grateful I hadn’t gone to the police because it could have turned into a media circus and I might have been subjected to retaliation.

Lyndsay Renée on October 28, 2014 at 1:15 AM Well written Jenny! xo

Well written Jenny! xo

Marlo on October 27, 2014 at 10:24 PM Hi folks, this post is inspiring a lot of comments. Now seems like a good time to remind everyone of our commenting policy, and to encourage you to review it before jumping into the conversation. http://screaminginallcaps.com/commenting-guidelines/

Hi folks, this post is inspiring a lot of comments. Now seems like a good time to remind everyone of our commenting policy, and to encourage you to review it before jumping into the conversation. http://screaminginallcaps.com/commenting-guidelines/

Jillian on October 27, 2014 at 8:54 PM We must also consider the fact that people who do engage in alternative (while also consensual) sex lives should not have to fear a defamation of their character or rash punishment Jen on October 27, 2014 at 8:55 PM Absolutely. That’s precisely why I linked to the article titled Poor Persecuted Pervert? Great analysis there. Jillian on October 27, 2014 at 10:03 PM My point is that sometimes, SOMETIMES, something originally agreed upon by two parties to be consensual kink can sometimes get twisted way out of proportion. And while i do think these women deserve a fair chance to be heard, I also believe that there are certain “band wagon” situations. Girl power is a strong thing. That article still has an agenda to “villainize” based on one person’s definition of BDSM. Im sure the “don’t vilify me for being kinky” excuse comes up but you also shouldn’t be assuming that anyone who tries to defend their sexual practices is trying to cover their butts. Jen on October 27, 2014 at 10:05 PM Salient points. Thank you.

We must also consider the fact that people who do engage in alternative (while also consensual) sex lives should not have to fear a defamation of their character or rash punishment

Jen on October 27, 2014 at 8:55 PM Absolutely. That’s precisely why I linked to the article titled Poor Persecuted Pervert? Great analysis there. Jillian on October 27, 2014 at 10:03 PM My point is that sometimes, SOMETIMES, something originally agreed upon by two parties to be consensual kink can sometimes get twisted way out of proportion. And while i do think these women deserve a fair chance to be heard, I also believe that there are certain “band wagon” situations. Girl power is a strong thing. That article still has an agenda to “villainize” based on one person’s definition of BDSM. Im sure the “don’t vilify me for being kinky” excuse comes up but you also shouldn’t be assuming that anyone who tries to defend their sexual practices is trying to cover their butts. Jen on October 27, 2014 at 10:05 PM Salient points. Thank you.

Jen on October 27, 2014 at 8:55 PM Absolutely. That’s precisely why I linked to the article titled Poor Persecuted Pervert? Great analysis there.

Absolutely. That’s precisely why I linked to the article titled Poor Persecuted Pervert? Great analysis there.

Jillian on October 27, 2014 at 10:03 PM My point is that sometimes, SOMETIMES, something originally agreed upon by two parties to be consensual kink can sometimes get twisted way out of proportion. And while i do think these women deserve a fair chance to be heard, I also believe that there are certain “band wagon” situations. Girl power is a strong thing. That article still has an agenda to “villainize” based on one person’s definition of BDSM. Im sure the “don’t vilify me for being kinky” excuse comes up but you also shouldn’t be assuming that anyone who tries to defend their sexual practices is trying to cover their butts. Jen on October 27, 2014 at 10:05 PM Salient points. Thank you.

My point is that sometimes, SOMETIMES, something originally agreed upon by two parties to be consensual kink can sometimes get twisted way out of proportion. And while i do think these women deserve a fair chance to be heard, I also believe that there are certain “band wagon” situations. Girl power is a strong thing. That article still has an agenda to “villainize” based on one person’s definition of BDSM. Im sure the “don’t vilify me for being kinky” excuse comes up but you also shouldn’t be assuming that anyone who tries to defend their sexual practices is trying to cover their butts.

Jen on October 27, 2014 at 10:05 PM Salient points. Thank you.

Salient points. Thank you.

Ben on October 27, 2014 at 8:26 PM I’m happy to have read your point of view and take it to heart. I started on the Jian bandwagon as many of us did, thinking this was an HR issue between him and CBC. Clearly they saw this shit storm coming and didn’t want to stand behind him, guilty or not. I’m not sure if that’s “legal” but they did it. Now that the “truth” begins to leak, past complaints come out again, others step forward in the shadows it becomes clear that there’s way too much for the population to assume and distort into what they feel is real. Navigator certianly knows what they’re doing. And so GhomeshiGate begins. I hope, if the allegations are true, the women involved can find the courage to see this to the end and justice is served. I’m doubtful that will happen.

I’m happy to have read your point of view and take it to heart. I started on the Jian bandwagon as many of us did, thinking this was an HR issue between him and CBC. Clearly they saw this shit storm coming and didn’t want to stand behind him, guilty or not. I’m not sure if that’s “legal” but they did it.

Now that the “truth” begins to leak, past complaints come out again, others step forward in the shadows it becomes clear that there’s way too much for the population to assume and distort into what they feel is real. Navigator certianly knows what they’re doing.

And so GhomeshiGate begins. I hope, if the allegations are true, the women involved can find the courage to see this to the end and justice is served. I’m doubtful that will happen.

Stephanie on October 27, 2014 at 6:27 PM How about you instead of assuming the claim is correct, take an unbiased approach to this… He said he engages in consentual sex they say different… Will you apologize to this man if he is innocent? Or will you ignore your previous statements and move on to yet another victim of your words? There is a rape culture it’s alive and well within feminism. Everything has to do with rape and if you can paint all men as rapists you’re happy to do it… Jen on October 27, 2014 at 6:34 PM I didn’t say that we should assume he is guilty, if that’s what you’re trying to say. I’m asking people to ask themselves why they have an easier time believing a celebrity using a PR strategist than four women. Me on October 27, 2014 at 10:50 PM I think a lot of people are mostly looking at the fact that he was fired over allegations rather than something he is guilty of. Fire him if he’s found guilty. It could easily be 4 women who just really hate his talk show, heard about the previous story regarding his sexual desires and decided that going to the press with a fake story might work in cancelling the show. And hey, if anyone asks why they didn’t go to the police, just say they were afraid to because of being scrutinized. We don’t know all the facts but if they honestly were all abused, they’d have physical marks showing it and going to the police would be the right thing to do. If they really were afraid of doing that? Why were they all feeling the same way? Not a single “victim” thought to go to the police? And they’re worried about be scrutinized but not worrut Homes danny on October 27, 2014 at 11:16 PM i don’t pretend to know if he or the press is telling the truth. it has nothing to do with people blindly believing a celebrity figure over the press, though those people surely exist I don’t have much interest in paying them a seconds thought. However, both the press and ghomeshi would have incentive to lie; selling a story or convincing the public you’re not a rapist. The fact that he approached a PR industry really doesn’t point to him lying. It only points to him wanting to uphold his public image and there’s nothing inherently wrong with that, though you write like it obviates his innocence. I do agree this article was written from a place of bias and presumption and am a bit uncomfortable with that, though I do appreciate being exposed to this perspective and know it exists. I really have no personal incentive to defend the guy, I don’t know him and don’t really care much. Maybe I’m playing devils advocate a bit. Lyndsay Renée on October 28, 2014 at 1:19 AM That is one big stretch Stephanie! Re-read, how bout that? Then ask yourself if you can apologise for the silly accusations you just made. Jack on October 28, 2014 at 9:27 AM This comment is counter productive to what has so far been an open discourse designed to encourage respect for BOTH men and women when allegations of sexual violence are made. This public perception that feminism is the problem, that feminism serves only to advance the agenda of a few bra burning radical women and that feminism equates man hating must be stopped. Read more. Think critically.

How about you instead of assuming the claim is correct, take an unbiased approach to this… He said he engages in consentual sex they say different… Will you apologize to this man if he is innocent? Or will you ignore your previous statements and move on to yet another victim of your words?

There is a rape culture it’s alive and well within feminism. Everything has to do with rape and if you can paint all men as rapists you’re happy to do it…

Jen on October 27, 2014 at 6:34 PM I didn’t say that we should assume he is guilty, if that’s what you’re trying to say. I’m asking people to ask themselves why they have an easier time believing a celebrity using a PR strategist than four women. Me on October 27, 2014 at 10:50 PM I think a lot of people are mostly looking at the fact that he was fired over allegations rather than something he is guilty of. Fire him if he’s found guilty. It could easily be 4 women who just really hate his talk show, heard about the previous story regarding his sexual desires and decided that going to the press with a fake story might work in cancelling the show. And hey, if anyone asks why they didn’t go to the police, just say they were afraid to because of being scrutinized. We don’t know all the facts but if they honestly were all abused, they’d have physical marks showing it and going to the police would be the right thing to do. If they really were afraid of doing that? Why were they all feeling the same way? Not a single “victim” thought to go to the police? And they’re worried about be scrutinized but not worrut Homes danny on October 27, 2014 at 11:16 PM i don’t pretend to know if he or the press is telling the truth. it has nothing to do with people blindly believing a celebrity figure over the press, though those people surely exist I don’t have much interest in paying them a seconds thought. However, both the press and ghomeshi would have incentive to lie; selling a story or convincing the public you’re not a rapist. The fact that he approached a PR industry really doesn’t point to him lying. It only points to him wanting to uphold his public image and there’s nothing inherently wrong with that, though you write like it obviates his innocence. I do agree this article was written from a place of bias and presumption and am a bit uncomfortable with that, though I do appreciate being exposed to this perspective and know it exists. I really have no personal incentive to defend the guy, I don’t know him and don’t really care much. Maybe I’m playing devils advocate a bit.

I didn’t say that we should assume he is guilty, if that’s what you’re trying to say. I’m asking people to ask themselves why they have an easier time believing a celebrity using a PR strategist than four women.

Me on October 27, 2014 at 10:50 PM I think a lot of people are mostly looking at the fact that he was fired over allegations rather than something he is guilty of. Fire him if he’s found guilty. It could easily be 4 women who just really hate his talk show, heard about the previous story regarding his sexual desires and decided that going to the press with a fake story might work in cancelling the show. And hey, if anyone asks why they didn’t go to the police, just say they were afraid to because of being scrutinized. We don’t know all the facts but if they honestly were all abused, they’d have physical marks showing it and going to the police would be the right thing to do. If they really were afraid of doing that? Why were they all feeling the same way? Not a single “victim” thought to go to the police? And they’re worried about be scrutinized but not worrut Homes

I think a lot of people are mostly looking at the fact that he was fired over allegations rather than something he is guilty of.

Fire him if he’s found guilty. It could easily be 4 women who just really hate his talk show, heard about the previous story regarding his sexual desires and decided that going to the press with a fake story might work in cancelling the show. And hey, if anyone asks why they didn’t go to the police, just say they were afraid to because of being scrutinized.

We don’t know all the facts but if they honestly were all abused, they’d have physical marks showing it and going to the police would be the right thing to do.

If they really were afraid of doing that? Why were they all feeling the same way?

Not a single “victim” thought to go to the police? And they’re worried about be scrutinized but not worrut Homes

danny on October 27, 2014 at 11:16 PM i don’t pretend to know if he or the press is telling the truth. it has nothing to do with people blindly believing a celebrity figure over the press, though those people surely exist I don’t have much interest in paying them a seconds thought. However, both the press and ghomeshi would have incentive to lie; selling a story or convincing the public you’re not a rapist. The fact that he approached a PR industry really doesn’t point to him lying. It only points to him wanting to uphold his public image and there’s nothing inherently wrong with that, though you write like it obviates his innocence. I do agree this article was written from a place of bias and presumption and am a bit uncomfortable with that, though I do appreciate being exposed to this perspective and know it exists. I really have no personal incentive to defend the guy, I don’t know him and don’t really care much. Maybe I’m playing devils advocate a bit.

i don’t pretend to know if he or the press is telling the truth. it has nothing to do with people blindly believing a celebrity figure over the press, though those people surely exist I don’t have much interest in paying them a seconds thought. However, both the press and ghomeshi would have incentive to lie; selling a story or convincing the public you’re not a rapist. The fact that he approached a PR industry really doesn’t point to him lying. It only points to him wanting to uphold his public image and there’s nothing inherently wrong with that, though you write like it obviates his innocence. I do agree this article was written from a place of bias and presumption and am a bit uncomfortable with that, though I do appreciate being exposed to this perspective and know it exists. I really have no personal incentive to defend the guy, I don’t know him and don’t really care much. Maybe I’m playing devils advocate a bit.

Lyndsay Renée on October 28, 2014 at 1:19 AM That is one big stretch Stephanie! Re-read, how bout that? Then ask yourself if you can apologise for the silly accusations you just made.

That is one big stretch Stephanie! Re-read, how bout that? Then ask yourself if you can apologise for the silly accusations you just made.

Jack on October 28, 2014 at 9:27 AM This comment is counter productive to what has so far been an open discourse designed to encourage respect for BOTH men and women when allegations of sexual violence are made. This public perception that feminism is the problem, that feminism serves only to advance the agenda of a few bra burning radical women and that feminism equates man hating must be stopped. Read more. Think critically.

This comment is counter productive to what has so far been an open discourse designed to encourage respect for BOTH men and women when allegations of sexual violence are made. This public perception that feminism is the problem, that feminism serves only to advance the agenda of a few bra burning radical women and that feminism equates man hating must be stopped. Read more. Think critically.

Monty on October 27, 2014 at 5:31 PM Yet society allows men like Woody Allen, Bryan Singer, Kobe Bryant, Ben Roethlisberger and apparently Jian Ghomeshi to continue with their lives, while the victims live in shame, guilt and regret for the rest of their lives. Very little credence is afforded the victim(s), and sadly, fewer victims decide to speak out. To men I know, I always suggest they ask their wives/girlfriends/partners what they endure on a daily basis from random men. I was at first astonished myself when I began to ask the question; now I’m just ashamed to be part of the same gender. Far too many people dismiss the victims’ stories without asking the hard questions, and vilify them for seeking attention, money or fame. Really? Because if you were to ask any victim who’s come forward with allegations, their lives become open to scrutiny unlike that of the alleged perpetrator, almost every instance. What the victims wore, what they did previously in their lives becomes more the focus than the crime that occurred. It’s time to stop lionizing famous men and start putting their lives under the microscope. Jen on October 27, 2014 at 6:30 PM Great comment and precisely what this post was about. Thank you. Screaming Buddha on October 27, 2014 at 8:38 PM To be fair, I believe the charges against Bryan Singer were dropped. So let’s replace him with Bill Cosby, who has been accused by 13+ women of drugging them and subsequently sexually assaulting them while they were unconscious. Mac on October 28, 2014 at 8:51 AM There were never charges filed against Roethlisberger, despite a full police investigation. And he got a 4 game suspension (at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars), plus lost a ton in terms of potential endorsement dollars and general popularity. All this for an allegation which we have every reason to believe was completely false. Want to explain how that qualifies as “being allowed to continue with your life”? That “victim” seems very likely to have lied about what happened, and will basically get to live in anonymity forever. Roethlisberger will have to carry the stigma of the allegations around for the rest of his professional career and beyond, despite NO EVIDENCE that he did anything wrong. Isn’t there a point where this fails to make sense? Jane on October 28, 2014 at 9:55 AM BUT….in a civilized society one has to be proven guilty, not simply insinuated. The problem lies in the proving and I recognize that and acknowledge that we have to go miles before this is equitable in any shape or form. Thus the point of the piece in the first place…rape culture and men of privileged. But I for one think the only way this can possibly change is to work it through the societal machine that is the courts. Not through the media, let alone social media and gossip rags. We’ve most certainly got a long ways to go and the examples of injustice towards rape and sexual assault victims….BUT….without women boldly and loudly and proudly reclaiming their rights and sexuality we will not make forward progress. As said by a woman sexually assaulted and raped that did not report it and regrets it every day.

Yet society allows men like Woody Allen, Bryan Singer, Kobe Bryant, Ben Roethlisberger and apparently Jian Ghomeshi to continue with their lives, while the victims live in shame, guilt and regret for the rest of their lives. Very little credence is afforded the victim(s), and sadly, fewer victims decide to speak out. To men I know, I always suggest they ask their wives/girlfriends/partners what they endure on a daily basis from random men. I was at first astonished myself when I began to ask the question; now I’m just ashamed to be part of the same gender.

Far too many people dismiss the victims’ stories without asking the hard questions, and vilify them for seeking attention, money or fame. Really? Because if you were to ask any victim who’s come forward with allegations, their lives become open to scrutiny unlike that of the alleged perpetrator, almost every instance. What the victims wore, what they did previously in their lives becomes more the focus than the crime that occurred. It’s time to stop lionizing famous men and start putting their lives under the microscope.

Jen on October 27, 2014 at 6:30 PM Great comment and precisely what this post was about. Thank you.

Great comment and precisely what this post was about. Thank you.

Screaming Buddha on October 27, 2014 at 8:38 PM To be fair, I believe the charges against Bryan Singer were dropped. So let’s replace him with Bill Cosby, who has been accused by 13+ women of drugging them and subsequently sexually assaulting them while they were unconscious.

To be fair, I believe the charges against Bryan Singer were dropped.

So let’s replace him with Bill Cosby, who has been accused by 13+ women of drugging them and subsequently sexually assaulting them while they were unconscious.

Mac on October 28, 2014 at 8:51 AM There were never charges filed against Roethlisberger, despite a full police investigation. And he got a 4 game suspension (at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars), plus lost a ton in terms of potential endorsement dollars and general popularity. All this for an allegation which we have every reason to believe was completely false. Want to explain how that qualifies as “being allowed to continue with your life”? That “victim” seems very likely to have lied about what happened, and will basically get to live in anonymity forever. Roethlisberger will have to carry the stigma of the allegations around for the rest of his professional career and beyond, despite NO EVIDENCE that he did anything wrong. Isn’t there a point where this fails to make sense?

There were never charges filed against Roethlisberger, despite a full police investigation. And he got a 4 game suspension (at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars), plus lost a ton in terms of potential endorsement dollars and general popularity. All this for an allegation which we have every reason to believe was completely false. Want to explain how that qualifies as “being allowed to continue with your life”? That “victim” seems very likely to have lied about what happened, and will basically get to live in anonymity forever. Roethlisberger will have to carry the stigma of the allegations around for the rest of his professional career and beyond, despite NO EVIDENCE that he did anything wrong. Isn’t there a point where this fails to make sense?

Jane on October 28, 2014 at 9:55 AM BUT….in a civilized society one has to be proven guilty, not simply insinuated. The problem lies in the proving and I recognize that and acknowledge that we have to go miles before this is equitable in any shape or form. Thus the point of the piece in the first place…rape culture and men of privileged. But I for one think the only way this can possibly change is to work it through the societal machine that is the courts. Not through the media, let alone social media and gossip rags. We’ve most certainly got a long ways to go and the examples of injustice towards rape and sexual assault victims….BUT….without women boldly and loudly and proudly reclaiming their rights and sexuality we will not make forward progress. As said by a woman sexually assaulted and raped that did not report it and regrets it every day.

BUT….in a civilized society one has to be proven guilty, not simply insinuated. The problem lies in the proving and I recognize that and acknowledge that we have to go miles before this is equitable in any shape or form. Thus the point of the piece in the first place…rape culture and men of privileged. But I for one think the only way this can possibly change is to work it through the societal machine that is the courts. Not through the media, let alone social media and gossip rags. We’ve most certainly got a long ways to go and the examples of injustice towards rape and sexual assault victims….BUT….without women boldly and loudly and proudly reclaiming their rights and sexuality we will not make forward progress.

As said by a woman sexually assaulted and raped that did not report it and regrets it every day.

jessepelletier62 on October 27, 2014 at 5:16 PM Valid points but isn’t hard to find the allegations credible when they go to the Toronto Star before the police? If Ghomeshi abused these women, he deserves to be found guilty in court and be punished. “…subsequent treatment of Ciccone was a big factor in their decision not to attach their names to the allegations.” That’s why you immediately go to police. That said, I’m sure there would still be people who would side with Ghomeshi and may indeed criticize/humiliate these women online but, there’s a certain legitimacy and seriousness that comes from laying charges with police. If he’s guilty, yet these women don’t file charges with police for fear of public backlash, then rape culture in Canada is worse than I thought, and you are spot on in your analysis. Good day. Kim on October 27, 2014 at 7:30 PM YES. Yes, “women don’t file charges with police for fear of public backlash.” All the time. It is that bad. Julia on October 29, 2014 at 5:47 AM Because there is no backlash right now for going to the media.

Valid points but isn’t hard to find the allegations credible when they go to the Toronto Star before the police? If Ghomeshi abused these women, he deserves to be found guilty in court and be punished.

“…subsequent treatment of Ciccone was a big factor in their decision not to attach their names to the allegations.”

That’s why you immediately go to police. That said, I’m sure there would still be people who would side with Ghomeshi and may indeed criticize/humiliate these women online but, there’s a certain legitimacy and seriousness that comes from laying charges with police. If he’s guilty, yet these women don’t file charges with police for fear of public backlash, then rape culture in Canada is worse than I thought, and you are spot on in your analysis. Good day.

Kim on October 27, 2014 at 7:30 PM YES. Yes, “women don’t file charges with police for fear of public backlash.” All the time. It is that bad. Julia on October 29, 2014 at 5:47 AM Because there is no backlash right now for going to the media.

Kim on October 27, 2014 at 7:30 PM YES. Yes, “women don’t file charges with police for fear of public backlash.” All the time. It is that bad.

YES. Yes, “women don’t file charges with police for fear of public backlash.” All the time. It is that bad.

Julia on October 29, 2014 at 5:47 AM Because there is no backlash right now for going to the media.

Because there is no backlash right now for going to the media.

Nick on October 27, 2014 at 4:33 PM I would regard the story the women are telling less skeptically if they had gone to the police; but they don’t seem reluctant in going to the press with this. That’s why I would give Ghomeshi the benefit of the doubt without knowing any actual objective evidence (which no one has, to be fair). I don’t think I would give him the benefit of the doubt because he is a man and the accusers are women. From the Star: “The reasons given for not coming forward publicly include the fear that they would be sued or would be the object of Internet retaliation. (A woman who wrote an account of an encounter with a Canadian radio host believed to be Ghomeshi was subjected to vicious Internet attacks by online readers who said they were supporters of the host.)”. Also: “None of the women has contacted police. When asked why by the Star, the women cited several reasons including fears that a police report would expose their names and worries that their consent or acceptance of fantasy role-play discussions in text or other messages with Ghomeshi would be used against them as evidence of consent to actual violence.” But what would be the advantage of going to the press over filing a formal charge with the police, with respect to public recognition or retaliation? I realize that even though both the press and the police may say they will keep the identity of an accuser anonymous, identities tend to get revealed anyway. But the main difference between the police and the press is that the former can help prevent similar incidents from happening again to other people, and to do so, the perpetrator is made known to the press eventually, but that time from a more credible source–the police. I’m not saying women are less credible; rather an enforcement authority is always more credible than an individual. Perhaps I don’t know the full consequences of reporting someone to the police with regards to keeping one’s identity a secret, but it seems to me like the press it not a better option. It also doesn’t seem as though hiring a freelance journalist to “sell” a story about Ghomeshi to various sources is an option that would benefit one’s cause either, although to be fair this journalist is only talked about in Ghomeshi’s account of the situation. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this! Despite my discussion, I am genuinely thankful for your opinion on this and appreciate the provocation of thought via this post. MK on October 27, 2014 at 6:27 PM There’s a very simple reason you talk to journalists and not the police. Journalists can legally protect your identity – they can’t be forced to reveal a source. But once a police report is filed, your name is recorded and legally has to given to the person you accuse. And based of what we’ve seen already, you bet the chances of keeping themselves anonymous is very slim. This way, the story of what happened to you is out there, other people are warned, and the person who assaulted you isn’t getting away with it. It’s definitely safer. Jen on October 27, 2014 at 6:38 PM There’s also a lot of mistrust around police due to systemic victim-blaming and re-victimization. Going through the police can be a very, very painful process. Glen on October 28, 2014 at 10:54 AM Great article, and I’m not picking a side here. But, you say that there is mistrust around police? But there’s a lot of trust going to a newspaper journalist? That have a reputation for twisting things? Hen on October 28, 2014 at 6:57 PM I’ve gone to the police before. They told me my stalker was ‘obviously just attracted to you’. I was 16 and he was in his 30s. Because I told them who he was, they contacted him about it, and that made him worse. Julia on October 29, 2014 at 5:46 AM But he already knows who accused him. Wouldn’t going to the police and getting a publication ban protect them better than going to the media alone? Nothing is preventing people to “out them” on social media and without a publication ban no consequences if anyone does. Some people know who they are and it’s just a matter of time before they are outed. It’s not right but that’s they way things go in this social media age. Easy to hide behind a keyboard. Phil on October 27, 2014 at 9:52 PM Well said Nick LC on October 27, 2014 at 10:25 PM I’ve gone to the police. And taken it all the way through to trial. And had him finally admit it. You know what? I don’t know if I could do it again, even with the doctors and prosecutor and police who did a good job. I had to live in it for months. Go over the facts in my head, so I could be cross examined. Go over all the things that maybe could have stopped it – why did I trust him? Was I flirting? He had a psych assessment I read where he said I was. The only reason I reported was because he lived somewhere he could do it again, and charging him was get him out quickly. You know what? He will go on to meet women who will have no idea what they might be walking in to. Jane on October 28, 2014 at 9:48 AM check christie blanchford’s piece in the paper today. She knows her way around a court room and has credible perspective on the protecting of the accused and witnesses in a sexual assault case. Additionally, the Star….not exactly the most credible source which doesn’t help…. silvermoon3 on October 28, 2014 at 4:13 PM I think it’s noteworthy that the women didn’t all seek out the journalist themselves. Apparently the journalist had a lead from an initial woman who did go to the press who sought out other women Ghomeshi had known to see if any had experienced any similar stories is how I understood it. Were it me in that situation, I can totally see being afraid to go to the police, where we have examples all the time of being questioned – often outright blamed – for everything from our clothing to supposedly “asking for it”. And to have your name published in media internationally, to have countless fans of the accused *threaten* you because they assume this person could not be guilty… Add knowing that the accused has the resources to obtain the best representation whereas you might need to find someone willing to do pro bono if you don’t have lots of money foràa lawyer, let alone a fancy crisis/image management firm to help you sell your innocence to the country and the courts. I’m not sure I would feel able to report to the police because all of that sounds like potentially endless abuse on top of what already took place. I’m not saying that it’s the best choice, but understandable, in my opinion. It’s sad and disgusting that more isn’t done to shield victims -male or female – from coming forward to report assaults so that perpetrators of sex crimes can be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I would regard the story the women are telling less skeptically if they had gone to the police; but they don’t seem reluctant in going to the press with this. That’s why I would give Ghomeshi the benefit of the doubt without knowing any actual objective evidence (which no one has, to be fair). I don’t think I would give him the benefit of the doubt because he is a man and the accusers are women.

From the Star: “The reasons given for not coming forward publicly include the fear that they would be sued or would be the object of Internet retaliation. (A woman who wrote an account of an encounter with a Canadian radio host believed to be Ghomeshi was subjected to vicious Internet attacks by online readers who said they were supporters of the host.)”.

Also: “None of the women has contacted police. When asked why by the Star, the women cited several reasons including fears that a police report would expose their names and worries that their consent or acceptance of fantasy role-play discussions in text or other messages with Ghomeshi would be used against them as evidence of consent to actual violence.”

But what would be the advantage of going to the press over filing a formal charge with the police, with respect to public recognition or retaliation? I realize that even though both the press and the police may say they will keep the identity of an accuser anonymous, identities tend to get revealed anyway. But the main difference between the police and the press is that the former can help prevent similar incidents from happening again to other people, and to do so, the perpetrator is made known to the press eventually, but that time from a more credible source–the police. I’m not saying women are less credible; rather an enforcement authority is always more credible than an individual.

Perhaps I don’t know the full consequences of reporting someone to the police with regards to keeping one’s identity a secret, but it seems to me like the press it not a better option. It also doesn’t seem as though hiring a freelance journalist to “sell” a story about Ghomeshi to various sources is an option that would benefit one’s cause either, although to be fair this journalist is only talked about in Ghomeshi’s account of the situation.

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this! Despite my discussion, I am genuinely thankful for your opinion on this and appreciate the provocation of thought via this post.

MK on October 27, 2014 at 6:27 PM There’s a very simple reason you talk to journalists and not the police. Journalists can legally protect your identity – they can’t be forced to reveal a source. But once a police report is filed, your name is recorded and legally has to given to the person you accuse. And based of what we’ve seen already, you bet the chances of keeping themselves anonymous is very slim. This way, the story of what happened to you is out there, other people are warned, and the person who assaulted you isn’t getting away with it. It’s definitely safer. Jen on October 27, 2014 at 6:38 PM There’s also a lot of mistrust around police due to systemic victim-blaming and re-victimization. Going through the police can be a very, very painful process. Glen on October 28, 2014 at 10:54 AM Great article, and I’m not picking a side here. But, you say that there is mistrust around police? But there’s a lot of trust going to a newspaper journalist? That have a reputation for twisting things? Hen on October 28, 2014 at 6:57 PM I’ve gone to the police before. They told me my stalker was ‘obviously just attracted to you’. I was 16 and he was in his 30s. Because I told them who he was, they contacted him about it, and that made him worse. Julia on October 29, 2014 at 5:46 AM But he already knows who accused him. Wouldn’t going to the police and getting a publication ban protect them better than going to the media alone? Nothing is preventing people to “out them” on social media and without a publication ban no consequences if anyone does. Some people know who they are and it’s just a matter of time before they are outed. It’s not right but that’s they way things go in this social media age. Easy to hide behind a keyboard.

There’s a very simple reason you talk to journalists and not the police. Journalists can legally protect your identity – they can’t be forced to reveal a source. But once a police report is filed, your name is recorded and legally has to given to the person you accuse. And based of what we’ve seen already, you bet the chances of keeping themselves anonymous is very slim. This way, the story of what happened to you is out there, other people are warned, and the person who assaulted you isn’t getting away with it. It’s definitely safer.

Jen on October 27, 2014 at 6:38 PM There’s also a lot of mistrust around police due to systemic victim-blaming and re-victimization. Going through the police can be a very, very painful process. Glen on October 28, 2014 at 10:54 AM Great article, and I’m not picking a side here. But, you say that there is mistrust around police? But there’s a lot of trust going to a newspaper journalist? That have a reputation for twisting things? Hen on October 28, 2014 at 6:57 PM I’ve gone to the police before. They told me my stalker was ‘obviously just attracted to you’. I was 16 and he was in his 30s. Because I told them who he was, they contacted him about it, and that made him worse.

Jen on October 27, 2014 at 6:38 PM There’s also a lot of mistrust around police due to systemic victim-blaming and re-victimization. Going through the police can be a very, very painful process.

There’s also a lot of mistrust around police due to systemic victim-blaming and re-victimization. Going through the police can be a very, very painful process.

Glen on October 28, 2014 at 10:54 AM Great article, and I’m not picking a side here. But, you say that there is mistrust around police? But there’s a lot of trust going to a newspaper journalist? That have a reputation for twisting things? Hen on October 28, 2014 at 6:57 PM I’ve gone to the police before. They told me my stalker was ‘obviously just attracted to you’. I was 16 and he was in his 30s. Because I told them who he was, they contacted him about it, and that made him worse.

Great article, and I’m not picking a side here. But, you say that there is mistrust around police? But there’s a lot of trust going to a newspaper journalist? That have a reputation for twisting things?

Hen on October 28, 2014 at 6:57 PM I’ve gone to the police before. They told me my stalker was ‘obviously just attracted to you’. I was 16 and he was in his 30s. Because I told them who he was, they contacted him about it, and that made him worse.

I’ve gone to the police before. They told me my stalker was ‘obviously just attracted to you’. I was 16 and he was in his 30s. Because I told them who he was, they contacted him about it, and that made him worse.

Julia on October 29, 2014 at 5:46 AM But he already knows who accused him. Wouldn’t going to the police and getting a publication ban protect them better than going to the media alone? Nothing is preventing people to “out them” on social media and without a publication ban no consequences if anyone does. Some people know who they are and it’s just a matter of time before they are outed. It’s not right but that’s they way things go in this social media age. Easy to hide behind a keyboard.

But he already knows who accused him. Wouldn’t going to the police and getting a publication ban protect them better than going to the media alone? Nothing is preventing people to “out them” on social media and without a publication ban no consequences if anyone does.

Some people know who they are and it’s just a matter of time before they are outed. It’s not right but that’s they way things go in this social media age. Easy to hide behind a keyboard.

Phil on October 27, 2014 at 9:52 PM Well said Nick

Well said Nick

LC on October 27, 2014 at 10:25 PM I’ve gone to the police. And taken it all the way through to trial. And had him finally admit it. You know what? I don’t know if I could do it again, even with the doctors and prosecutor and police who did a good job. I had to live in it for months. Go over the facts in my head, so I could be cross examined. Go over all the things that maybe could have stopped it – why did I trust him? Was I flirting? He had a psych assessment I read where he said I was. The only reason I reported was because he lived somewhere he could do it again, and charging him was get him out quickly. You know what? He will go on to meet women who will have no idea what they might be walking in to.

I’ve gone to the police. And taken it all the way through to trial. And had him finally admit it. You know what? I don’t know if I could do it again, even with the doctors and prosecutor and police who did a good job. I had to live in it for months. Go over the facts in my head, so I could be cross examined. Go over all the things that maybe could have stopped it – why did I trust him? Was I flirting? He had a psych assessment I read where he said I was. The only reason I reported was because he lived somewhere he could do it again, and charging him was get him out quickly. You know what? He will go on to meet women who will have no idea what they might be walking in to.

Jane on October 28, 2014 at 9:48 AM check christie blanchford’s piece in the paper today. She knows her way around a court room and has credible perspective on the protecting of the accused and witnesses in a sexual assault case. Additionally, the Star….not exactly the most credible source which doesn’t help….

check christie blanchford’s piece in the paper today. She knows her way around a court room and has credible perspective on the protecting of the accused and witnesses in a sexual assault case. Additionally, the Star….not exactly the most credible source which doesn’t help….

silvermoon3 on October 28, 2014 at 4:13 PM I think it’s noteworthy that the women didn’t all seek out the journalist themselves. Apparently the journalist had a lead from an initial woman who did go to the press who sought out other women Ghomeshi had known to see if any had experienced any similar stories is how I understood it. Were it me in that situation, I can totally see being afraid to go to the police, where we have examples all the time of being questioned – often outright blamed – for everything from our clothing to supposedly “asking for it”. And to have your name published in media internationally, to have countless fans of the accused *threaten* you because they assume this person could not be guilty… Add knowing that the accused has the resources to obtain the best representation whereas you might need to find someone willing to do pro bono if you don’t have lots of money foràa lawyer, let alone a fancy crisis/image management firm to help you sell your innocence to the country and the courts. I’m not sure I would feel able to report to the police because all of that sounds like potentially endless abuse on top of what already took place. I’m not saying that it’s the best choice, but understandable, in my opinion. It’s sad and disgusting that more isn’t done to shield victims -male or female – from coming forward to report assaults so that perpetrators of sex crimes can be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I think it’s noteworthy that the women didn’t all seek out the journalist themselves. Apparently the journalist had a lead from an initial woman who did go to the press who sought out other women Ghomeshi had known to see if any had experienced any similar stories is how I understood it.

Were it me in that situation, I can totally see being afraid to go to the police, where we have examples all the time of being questioned – often outright blamed – for everything from our clothing to supposedly “asking for it”. And to have your name published in media internationally, to have countless fans of the accused *threaten* you because they assume this person could not be guilty…

Add knowing that the accused has the resources to obtain the best representation whereas you might need to find someone willing to do pro bono if you don’t have lots of money foràa lawyer, let alone a fancy crisis/image management firm to help you sell your innocence to the country and the courts. I’m not sure I would feel able to report to the police because all of that sounds like potentially endless abuse on top of what already took place.

I’m not saying that it’s the best choice, but understandable, in my opinion. It’s sad and disgusting that more isn’t done to shield victims -male or female – from coming forward to report assaults so that perpetrators of sex crimes can be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Clara on October 27, 2014 at 4:20 PM Of course these men in “power” don’t want their “power” taken from them. Look at the lengths he’s already went to, to protect himself. Hired this one and that one. He thinks he’s some gift to women and needs to give his head a shake. He’s a pig….. and not everyone goes around crying rape because they’re mad with their exes. There are some crazy women out there and I’ve experienced first hand a woman who got her sister to lie for her and say her ex husband raped her. Of course both women got caught lying after they claimed the man raped the sister, they had no remorse, weren’t upset or sad at the fact that sex was “forced” upon her. The week after she filed the complaint she was seen out with friends, drinking doing drugs, having the time of her life with not a care in the world. Not something I’ve seen women who claim they were assaulted, do. Most women who have been assaulted suffer from post traumatic stress disorder, are going through a depression and their lives are ruined. Coming forward after a sexual assault incident is very hard for anyone, male or female, child or adult. silvermoon3 on October 28, 2014 at 3:14 PM Hi, there. I appreciate your comment and agree about your note about power, which I think isn’t being directly addressed in many commentaries on this situation – the fact that Ghomeshi is some 15-20~ years older than the women complainants, and that his celebrity and position give him. Power which can easily affect whether the women felt they could say no and be listened to, etc. I just wanted to say that while I recognize that there are people – men and women – who would lie about something so serious and terrible as sexual assault, please know thay everyone (or even most) who has gone through sexual assault will be immediately showing signs of PTSD and depression even a short time after an assault. They might well be suffering from both, but are able to put on a mask in public, plastering on a smile and going through the motions to try and feel like everything is OK. While it is common enough to suffer from PTSD and/or depression post-assault, that may not happen or look like how you might think. Because trauma affects people differently – can be a variety of factors, from having/not a good support system around you, your previous life experiences, all sorts of factors which are not to blame or suggest anyone is “OK” after being assaulted – it can look very differently. It isn’t uncommon for the mind to try and block out trauma: a horrible accident, a damaging fire, being in a war-torn location, being physically, mentally, or sexually abused are examples of times the mind might well try and block out certain events to protect us from the pain. Some people turn to self-medication like alcohol or other drugs to help numb their pain. I have heard of women who have been raped be unable to stand the idea of having any sexual contact with their loving partner for a long time. I have also heard of women seeking out numerous sexual encounters after their assaults. Some said they were trying to take back the loss of control or power taken from them in their assault. Others feel like they are somehow “damaged goods” and that’s all they deserve or will get. Our minds have amazing ability to help protect us from terrible shock and trauma, which might go on for months even years before the person – often via obtaining much counselling – is able to start to process the trauma they’ve been through. There are just too many variables of the human mind to be sure how people should or should not react in any given circumstance, at any given time. It’s also possible someone might be assuring everyone she’s fine, and at first she feels fine, but the shock period might last longer and then anger, fear, symptoms of depression, etc. might appear. Again, it’s deplorable if these women you mention colluded and lied about such allegations. It’s not only disgusting to say that about an innocent person, it hurts every other person who is victimized and might not be believed because of people who do lie. As you said, it is very hard to speak up after sexual assault,so it’s important to make sure we don’t accidentally help create barriers for those who need help by expecting certain behaviour as what’s ‘normal’. And to be careful to not lump survivors of real violence with those few rare liars for not acting a certain way. We can’t know if she’s partsense,in public but suicidal at home… Thank you for your comment and for reading mine, if you got this far – sorry it’s so long. It’s definitely a subject that brings out many strong emotions and opinions. Respectfully yours. x

Of course these men in “power” don’t want their “power” taken from them. Look at the lengths he’s already went to, to protect himself. Hired this one and that one. He thinks he’s some gift to women and needs to give his head a shake. He’s a pig….. and not everyone goes around crying rape because they’re mad with their exes. There are some crazy women out there and I’ve experienced first hand a woman who got her sister to lie for her and say her ex husband raped her. Of course both women got caught lying after they claimed the man raped the sister, they had no remorse, weren’t upset or sad at the fact that sex was “forced” upon her. The week after she filed the complaint she was seen out with friends, drinking doing drugs, having the time of her life with not a care in the world. Not something I’ve seen women who claim they were assaulted, do. Most women who have been assaulted suffer from post traumatic stress disorder, are going through a depression and their lives are ruined. Coming forward after a sexual assault incident is very hard for anyone, male or female, child or adult.

silvermoon3 on October 28, 2014 at 3:14 PM Hi, there. I appreciate your comment and agree about your note about power, which I think isn’t being directly addressed in many commentaries on this situation – the fact that Ghomeshi is some 15-20~ years older than the women complainants, and that his celebrity and position give him. Power which can easily affect whether the women felt they could say no and be listened to, etc. I just wanted to say that while I recognize that there are people – men and women – who would lie about something so serious and terrible as sexual assault, please know thay everyone (or even most) who has gone through sexual assault will be immediately showing signs of PTSD and depression even a short time after an assault. They might well be suffering from both, but are able to put on a mask in public, plastering on a smile and going through the motions to try and feel like everything is OK. While it is common enough to suffer from PTSD and/or depression post-assault, that may not happen or look like how you might think. Because trauma affects people differently – can be a variety of factors, from having/not a good support system around you, your previous life experiences, all sorts of factors which are not to blame or suggest anyone is “OK” after being assaulted – it can look very differently. It isn’t uncommon for the mind to try and block out trauma: a horrible accident, a damaging fire, being in a war-torn location, being physically, mentally, or sexually abused are examples of times the mind might well try and block out certain events to protect us from the pain. Some people turn to self-medication like alcohol or other drugs to help numb their pain. I have heard of women who have been raped be unable to stand the idea of having any sexual contact with their loving partner for a long time. I have also heard of women seeking out numerous sexual encounters after their assaults. Some said they were trying to take back the loss of control or power taken from them in their assault. Others feel like they are somehow “damaged goods” and that’s all they deserve or will get. Our minds have amazing ability to help protect us from terrible shock and trauma, which might go on for months even years before the person – often via obtaining much counselling – is able to start to process the trauma they’ve been through. There are just too many variables of the human mind to be sure how people should or should not react in any given circumstance, at any given time. It’s also possible someone might be assuring everyone she’s fine, and at first she feels fine, but the shock period might last longer and then anger, fear, symptoms of depression, etc. might appear. Again, it’s deplorable if these women you mention colluded and lied about such allegations. It’s not only disgusting to say that about an innocent person, it hurts every other person who is victimized and might not be believed because of people who do lie. As you said, it is very hard to speak up after sexual assault,so it’s important to make sure we don’t accidentally help create barriers for those who need help by expecting certain behaviour as what’s ‘normal’. And to be careful to not lump survivors of real violence with those few rare liars for not acting a certain way. We can’t know if she’s partsense,in public but suicidal at home… Thank you for your comment and for reading mine, if you got this far – sorry it’s so long. It’s definitely a subject that brings out many strong emotions and opinions. Respectfully yours. x

Hi, there. I appreciate your comment and agree about your note about power, which I think isn’t being directly addressed in many commentaries on this situation – the fact that Ghomeshi is some 15-20~ years older than the women complainants, and that his celebrity and position give him. Power which can easily affect whether the women felt they could say no and be listened to, etc.

I just wanted to say that while I recognize that there are people – men and women – who would lie about something so serious and terrible as sexual assault, please know thay everyone (or even most) who has gone through sexual assault will be immediately showing signs of PTSD and depression even a short time after an assault. They might well be suffering from both, but are able to put on a mask in public, plastering on a smile and going through the motions to try and feel like everything is OK.

While it is common enough to suffer from PTSD and/or depression post-assault, that may not happen or look like how you might think. Because trauma affects people differently – can be a variety of factors, from having/not a good support system around you, your previous life experiences, all sorts of factors which are not to blame or suggest anyone is “OK” after being assaulted – it can look very differently.

It isn’t uncommon for the mind to try and block out trauma: a horrible accident, a damaging fire, being in a war-torn location, being physically, mentally, or sexually abused are examples of times the mind might well try and block out certain events to protect us from the pain.

Some people turn to self-medication like alcohol or other drugs to help numb their pain. I have heard of women who have been raped be unable to stand the idea of having any sexual contact with their loving partner for a long time. I have also heard of women seeking out numerous sexual encounters after their assaults. Some said they were trying to take back the loss of control or power taken from them in their assault. Others feel like they are somehow “damaged goods” and that’s all they deserve or will get. Our minds have amazing ability to help protect us from terrible shock and trauma, which might go on for months even years before the person – often via obtaining much counselling – is able to start to process the trauma they’ve been through.

There are just too many variables of the human mind to be sure how people should or should not react in any given circumstance, at any given time. It’s also possible someone might be assuring everyone she’s fine, and at first she feels fine, but the shock period might last longer and then anger, fear, symptoms of depression, etc. might appear.

Again, it’s deplorable if these women you mention colluded and lied about such allegations. It’s not only disgusting to say that about an innocent person, it hurts every other person who is victimized and might not be believed because of people who do lie. As you said, it is very hard to speak up after sexual assault,so it’s important to make sure we don’t accidentally help create barriers for those who need help by expecting certain behaviour as what’s ‘normal’. And to be careful to not lump survivors of real violence with those few rare liars for not acting a certain way. We can’t know if she’s partsense,in public but suicidal at home…

Thank you for your comment and for reading mine, if you got this far – sorry it’s so long. It’s definitely a subject that brings out many strong emotions and opinions.

Respectfully yours. x

lindsayoquinnLindsay on October 27, 2014 at 3:25 PM He should have been fired after telling a coworker he was going to hate-fuck her, in my opinion.

He should have been fired after telling a coworker he was going to hate-fuck her, in my opinion.

Dianne Smith on October 27, 2014 at 3:18 PM Jian said he had the consent of all the women he had encounters with. It is the age-old he said, she said. Where the truth lies, no one knows. Women do lie and some try to destroy careers in revenge. Let’s not be sanctimonious about that – it happens. Again, I ask the question, if they are able to go to a writer about this, why not report it to the police? Clearly, they are not averse to airing it. Jen on October 27, 2014 at 6:32 PM No one saying it DOESN’T happen. I just don’t understand how something that rarely happens (false accusations) has become default. We’re more likely, as a society, to believe a man may have been falsely accused than to believe a man may have done something very bad. I want to know why that is. J.L. on October 27, 2014 at 10:10 PM And the odds of FOUR women falsely accusing the same guy? Interesting he apparently knows who the woman who started this is, according to his Facebook post, but he’s not rushing to sue her for defamation despite suggesting he has third party evidence of her efforts to attack him. Suss. Teresa Cavanaugh on October 27, 2014 at 7:00 PM I agree Dianne Smith. He apparently has texts and email conversations that confirm consent. As for the writer, her article detailed stuff most men would try on a date. Her take on it is hostile and derogatory. If you weren’t into the man then don’t agree to go on a date. Seems to me if you can so scathingly rip him apart on the Internet you should be capable of saying excuse me, I have to go now. Screaming Buddha on October 27, 2014 at 8:34 PM Consent is an ongoing thing Teresa – you can withdraw your consent at any time during the er… activities. Further, the courts have already confirmed that you cannot consent to assault (which a punch in the face and/or strangulation certainly count as. By-the-bye it’s very difficult to excuse yourself politely from the situation when someone is strangling you). As well, the women involved may have consented to kink A, B, C in the emails and texts but found out when they arrived that they were actually expected to participate in kink G, H, I. So *shrug*, the texts and emails are meaningless and the women still have a perfectly valid legal complaint should any of them opt to pursue charges in the courts.. Jenn on October 28, 2014 at 9:17 AM I agree! I think many people are overlooking the power dynamics at play here. By consenting to a kinky or “rough” sexual encounter before hand the women involved have surely internalized “guilt” for interactions that went further perhaps than they expected. Yes consent can be withdrawn at any time but how do you safely and comfortably extricate yourself from an activity that you “agreed” to? Especially in a society rife with victim blaming. Jane on October 28, 2014 at 9:43 AM Dont be judgmental of the kink….nothing wrong with that…Jenn to project that the women have “internalized guilt…” manifests as another form of blaming the victim in a rape culture. Excellent piece btw…very thought provoking. Jen on October 28, 2014 at 10:38 AM Jane, I hadn’t thought of “internalized guilt” as an extension of victim blaming. Perhaps you’re right. I simply meant to suggest that entrenched power dynamics have a role in this discussion. And those power dynamics too often call the woman’s character and dress into question first and foremost. As a woman who has seen other women blamed as agents in their own sexual assault for something as simple as wearing a pair of heels, I’d be reticent to complain to the police about a violent sexual encounter already. Particularly if I’d previously agreed to try something kinky by text. I suppose I meant to say women likely didn’t feel safe complaining to authorities for fear that the police would argue they’d brought this on themselves by consenting to try something new. Women who’ve been victimized too often blame themselves as it is saying, “I shouldn’t have…” Or ” If only I’d stayed home…” brianmate on October 29, 2014 at 3:22 AM The texts are meaningless except to provide a clever predator with even greater cover. CKnow on October 27, 2014 at 8:50 PM As a guy, I take exception to the idea that his actions were what “most men would try on a date”. Mildly creepy guys would grab ass without a sign she wanted you to (according to her story). Full creeps would keep going like he allegedly did as she gave out serious signs to stop, like saying stop. Also, the texts and emails conversations you say confirm consent are according to his account of it, from his facebook post. Why as the writer points out above, are people so quick to believe his story? There’s several stories here, I do not know which or what are the full truth…but I am certainly not going to demonize the 4 women in the star story or the blog writer from a year ago because of his PR focused facebook post. Also, CBC has stayed mum all day. Corporately, that is a responsible and fair approach. It happens even when a corp has really hard evidence or cause, but take the responsible road of not sharing these private details with the public. Perhaps his lawsuit will force them to reveal those details??? ali on October 28, 2014 at 7:21 AM That’s the most distressing part to me. How can emails and texts show consent. If in a real situation (not over electronic communication) a woman decides that she does not want to take part in hardcore BDSM, the email she wrote yesterday is meaningless. Very few people would consent to being punched in the face. Consent is an ongoing thing….it cannot be assumed based on a text or email. Ali on October 27, 2014 at 11:03 PM How often do women get justice by reporting to the police. If the women consented there would be no need to seek justice. These women feel violated and want justice – not revenge . Erica on October 28, 2014 at 2:42 PM Telling it to a trusted person and maintaining anonymity is a huge difference from going public and going through the legal process that can be just as violating and assaulting as the ordeal itself. Throw in the cyber bullying and it’s like being beaten and raped all over again. brianmate on October 29, 2014 at 3:19 AM If you had ever tried to report an assault to the police you might be able to piece together the answer to that. Possibly the newspaper reporters didn’t treat them with contempt and/or humiliate them a second time?

Jian said he had the consent of all the women he had encounters with. It is the age-old he said, she said. Where the truth lies, no one knows. Women do lie and some try to destroy careers in revenge. Let’s not be sanctimonious about that – it happens. Again, I ask the question, if they are able to go to a writer about this, why not report it to the police? Clearly, they are not averse to airing it.

Jen on October 27, 2014 at 6:32 PM No one saying it DOESN’T happen. I just don’t understand how something that rarely happens (false accusations) has become default. We’re more likely, as a society, to believe a man may have been falsely accused than to believe a man may have done something very bad. I want to know why that is. J.L. on October 27, 2014 at 10:10 PM And the odds of FOUR women falsely accusing the same guy? Interesting he apparently knows who the woman who started this is, according to his Facebook post, but he’s not rushing to sue her for defamation despite suggesting he has third party evidence of her efforts to attack him. Suss.

No one saying it DOESN’T happen. I just don’t understand how something that rarely happens (false accusations) has become default. We’re more likely, as a society, to believe a man may have been falsely accused than to believe a man may have done something very bad. I want to know why that is.

J.L. on October 27, 2014 at 10:10 PM And the odds of FOUR women falsely accusing the same guy? Interesting he apparently knows who the woman who started this is, according to his Facebook post, but he’s not rushing to sue her for defamation despite suggesting he has third party evidence of her efforts to attack him. Suss.

And the odds of FOUR women falsely accusing the same guy? Interesting he apparently knows who the woman who started this is, according to his Facebook post, but he’s not rushing to sue her for defamation despite suggesting he has third party evidence of her efforts to attack him. Suss.

Teresa Cavanaugh on October 27, 2014 at 7:00 PM I agree Dianne Smith. He apparently has texts and email conversations that confirm consent. As for the writer, her article detailed stuff most men would try on a date. Her take on it is hostile and derogatory. If you weren’t into the man then don’t agree to go on a date. Seems to me if you can so scathingly rip him apart on the Internet you should be capable of saying excuse me, I have to go now. Screaming Buddha on October 27, 2014 at 8:34 PM Consent is an ongoing thing Teresa – you can withdraw your consent at any time during the er… activities. Further, the courts have already confirmed that you cannot consent to assault (which a punch in the face and/or strangulation certainly count as. By-the-bye it’s very difficult to excuse yourself politely from the situation when someone is strangling you). As well, the women involved may have consented to kink A, B, C in the emails and texts but found out when they arrived that they were actually expected to participate in kink G, H, I. So *shrug*, the texts and emails are meaningless and the women still have a perfectly valid legal complaint should any of them opt to pursue charges in the courts.. Jenn on October 28, 2014 at 9:17 AM I agree! I think many people are overlooking the power dynamics at play here. By consenting to a kinky or “rough” sexual encounter before hand the women involved have surely internalized “guilt” for interactions that went further perhaps than they expected. Yes consent can be withdrawn at any time but how do you safely and comfortably extricate yourself from an activity that you “agreed” to? Especially in a society rife with victim blaming. Jane on October 28, 2014 at 9:43 AM Dont be judgmental of the kink….nothing wrong with that…Jenn to project that the women have “internalized guilt…” manifests as another form of blaming the victim in a rape culture. Excellent piece btw…very thought provoking. Jen on October 28, 2014 at 10:38 AM Jane, I hadn’t thought of “internalized guilt” as an extension of victim blaming. Perhaps you’re right. I simply meant to suggest that entrenched power dynamics have a role in this discussion. And those power dynamics too often call the woman’s character and dress into question first and foremost. As a woman who has seen other women blamed as agents in their own sexual assault for something as simple as wearing a pair of heels, I’d be reticent to complain to the police about a violent sexual encounter already. Particularly if I’d previously agreed to try something kinky by text. I suppose I meant to say women likely didn’t feel safe complaining to authorities for fear that the police would argue they’d brought this on themselves by consenting to try something new. Women who’ve been victimized too often blame themselves as it is saying, “I shouldn’t have…” Or ” If only I’d stayed home…” brianmate on October 29, 2014 at 3:22 AM The texts are meaningless except to provide a clever predator with even greater cover. CKnow on October 27, 2014 at 8:50 PM As a guy, I take exception to the idea that his actions were what “most men would try on a date”. Mildly creepy guys would grab ass without a sign she wanted you to (according to her story). Full creeps would keep going like he allegedly did as she gave out serious signs to stop, like saying stop. Also, the texts and emails conversations you say confirm consent are according to his account of it, from his facebook post. Why as the writer points out above, are people so quick to believe his story? There’s several stories here, I do not know which or what are the full truth…but I am certainly not going to demonize the 4 women in the star story or the blog writer from a year ago because of his PR focused facebook post. Also, CBC has stayed mum all day. Corporately, that is a responsible and fair approach. It happens even when a corp has really hard evidence or cause, but take the responsible road of not sharing these private details with the public. Perhaps his lawsuit will force them to reveal those details??? ali on October 28, 2014 at 7:21 AM That’s the most distressing part to me. How can emails and texts show consent. If in a real situation (not over electronic communication) a woman decides that she does not want to take part in hardcore BDSM, the email she wrote yesterday is meaningless. Very few people would consent to being punched in the face. Consent is an ongoing thing….it cannot be assumed based on a text or email.

I agree Dianne Smith. He apparently has texts and email conversations that confirm consent. As for the writer, her article detailed stuff most men would try on a date. Her take on it is hostile and derogatory. If you weren’t into the man then don’t agree to go on a date. Seems to me if you can so scathingly rip him apart on the Internet you should be capable of saying excuse me, I have to go now.

Screaming Buddha on October 27, 2014 at 8:34 PM Consent is an ongoing thing Teresa – you can withdraw your consent at any time during the er… activities. Further, the courts have already confirmed that you cannot consent to assault (which a punch in the face and/or strangulation certainly count as. By-the-bye it’s very difficult to excuse yourself politely from the situation when someone is strangling you). As well, the women involved may have consented to kink A, B, C in the emails and texts but found out when they arrived that they were actually expected to participate in kink G, H, I. So *shrug*, the texts and emails are meaningless and the women still have a perfectly valid legal complaint should any of them opt to pursue charges in the courts.. Jenn on October 28, 2014 at 9:17 AM I agree! I think many people are overlooking the power dynamics at play here. By consenting to a kinky or “rough” sexual encounter before hand the women involved have surely internalized “guilt” for interactions that went further perhaps than they expected. Yes consent can be withdrawn at any time but how do you safely and comfortably extricate yourself from an activity that you “agreed” to? Especially in a society rife with victim blaming. Jane on October 28, 2014 at 9:43 AM Dont be judgmental of the kink….nothing wrong with that…Jenn to project that the women have “internalized guilt…” manifests as another form of blaming the victim in a rape culture. Excellent piece btw…very thought provoking. Jen on October 28, 2014 at 10:38 AM Jane, I hadn’t thought of “internalized guilt” as an extension of victim blaming. Perhaps you’re right. I simply meant to suggest that entrenched power dynamics have a role in this discussion. And those power dynamics too often call the woman’s character and dress into question first and foremost. As a woman who has seen other women blamed as agents in their own sexual assault for something as simple as wearing a pair of heels, I’d be reticent to complain to the police about a violent sexual encounter already. Particularly if I’d previously agreed to try something kinky by text. I suppose I meant to say women likely didn’t feel safe complaining to authorities for fear that the police would argue they’d brought this on themselves by consenting to try something new. Women who’ve been victimized too often blame themselves as it is saying, “I shouldn’t have…” Or ” If only I’d stayed home…” brianmate on October 29, 2014 at 3:22 AM The texts are meaningless except to provide a clever predator with even greater cover.

Consent is an ongoing thing Teresa – you can withdraw your consent at any time during the er… activities. Further, the courts have already confirmed that you cannot consent to assault (which a punch in the face and/or strangulation certainly count as. By-the-bye it’s very difficult to excuse yourself politely from the situation when someone is strangling you). As well, the women involved may have consented to kink A, B, C in the emails and texts but found out when they arrived that they were actually expected to participate in kink G, H, I. So *shrug*, the texts and emails are meaningless and the women still have a perfectly valid legal complaint should any of them opt to pursue charges in the courts..

Jenn on October 28, 2014 at 9:17 AM I agree! I think many people are overlooking the power dynamics at play here. By consenting to a kinky or “rough” sexual encounter before hand the women involved have surely internalized “guilt” for interactions that went further perhaps than they expected. Yes consent can be withdrawn at any time but how do you safely and comfortably extricate yourself from an activity that you “agreed” to? Especially in a society rife with victim blaming. Jane on October 28, 2014 at 9:43 AM Dont be judgmental of the kink….nothing wrong with that…Jenn to project that the women have “internalized guilt…” manifests as another form of blaming the victim in a rape culture. Excellent piece btw…very thought provoking. Jen on October 28, 2014 at 10:38 AM Jane, I hadn’t thought of “internalized guilt” as an extension of victim blaming. Perhaps you’re right. I simply meant to suggest that entrenched power dynamics have a role in this discussion. And those power dynamics too often call the woman’s character and dress into question first and foremost. As a woman who has seen other women blamed as agents in their own sexual assault for something as simple as wearing a pair of heels, I’d be reticent to complain to the police about a violent sexual encounter already. Particularly if I’d previously agreed to try something kinky by text. I suppose I meant to say women likely didn’t feel safe complaining to authorities for fear that the police would argue they’d brought this on themselves by consenting to try something new. Women who’ve been victimized too often blame themselves as it is saying, “I shouldn’t have…” Or ” If only I’d stayed home…”

I agree! I think many people are overlooking the power dynamics at play here. By consenting to a kinky or “rough” sexual encounter before hand the women involved have surely internalized “guilt” for interactions that went further perhaps than they expected. Yes consent can be withdrawn at any time but how do you safely and comfortably extricate yourself from an activity that you “agreed” to? Especially in a society rife with victim blaming.

Jane on October 28, 2014 at 9:43 AM Dont be judgmental of the kink….nothing wrong with that…Jenn to project that the women have “internalized guilt…” manifests as another form of blaming the victim in a rape culture. Excellent piece btw…very thought provoking.

Dont be judgmental of the kink….nothing wrong with that…Jenn to project that the women have “internalized guilt…” manifests as another form of blaming the victim in a rape culture. Excellent piece btw…very thought provoking.

Jen on October 28, 2014 at 10:38 AM Jane, I hadn’t thought of “internalized guilt” as an extension of victim blaming. Perhaps you’re right. I simply meant to suggest that entrenched power dynamics have a role in this discussion. And those power dynamics too often call the woman’s character and dress into question first and foremost. As a woman who has seen other women blamed as agents in their own sexual assault for something as simple as wearing a pair of heels, I’d be reticent to complain to the police about a violent sexual encounter already. Particularly if I’d previously agreed to try something kinky by text. I suppose I meant to say women likely didn’t feel safe complaining to authorities for fear that the police would argue they’d brought this on themselves by consenting to try something new. Women who’ve been victimized too often blame themselves as it is saying, “I shouldn’t have…” Or ” If only I’d stayed home…”

Jane, I hadn’t thought of “internalized guilt” as an extension of victim blaming. Perhaps you’re right. I simply meant to suggest that entrenched power dynamics have a role in this discussion. And those power dynamics too often call the woman’s character and dress into question first and foremost. As a woman who has seen other women blamed as agents in their own sexual assault for something as simple as wearing a pair of heels, I’d be reticent to complain to the police about a violent sexual encounter already. Particularly if I’d previously agreed to try something kinky by text. I suppose I meant to say women likely didn’t feel safe complaining to authorities for fear that the police would argue they’d brought this on themselves by consenting to try something new. Women who’ve been victimized too often blame themselves as it is saying, “I shouldn’t have…” Or ” If only I’d stayed home…”

brianmate on October 29, 2014 at 3:22 AM The texts are meaningless except to provide a clever predator with even greater cover.

The texts are meaningless except to provide a clever predator with even greater cover.

CKnow on October 27, 2014 at 8:50 PM As a guy, I take exception to the idea that his actions were what “most men would try on a date”. Mildly creepy guys would grab ass without a sign she wanted you to (according to her story). Full creeps would keep going like he allegedly did as she gave out serious signs to stop, like saying stop. Also, the texts and emails conversations you say confirm consent are according to his account of it, from his facebook post. Why as the writer points out above, are people so quick to believe his story? There’s several stories here, I do not know which or what are the full truth…but I am certainly not going to demonize the 4 women in the star story or the blog writer from a year ago because of his PR focused facebook post. Also, CBC has stayed mum all day. Corporately, that is a responsible and fair approach. It happens even when a corp has really hard evidence or cause, but take the responsible road of not sharing these private details with the public. Perhaps his lawsuit will force them to reveal those details???

As a guy, I take exception to the idea that his actions were what “most men would try on a date”. Mildly creepy guys would grab ass without a sign she wanted you to (according to her story). Full creeps would keep going like he allegedly did as she gave out serious signs to stop, like saying stop. Also, the texts and emails conversations you say confirm consent are according to his account of it, from his facebook post. Why as the writer points out above, are people so quick to believe his story? There’s several stories here, I do not know which or what are the full truth…but I am certainly not going to demonize the 4 women in the star story or the blog writer from a year ago because of his PR focused facebook post. Also, CBC has stayed mum all day. Corporately, that is a responsible and fair approach. It happens even when a corp has really hard evidence or cause, but take the responsible road of not sharing these private details with the public. Perhaps his lawsuit will force them to reveal those details???

ali on October 28, 2014 at 7:21 AM That’s the most distressing part to me. How can emails and texts show consent. If in a real situation (not over electronic communication) a woman decides that she does not want to take part in hardcore BDSM, the email she wrote yesterday is meaningless. Very few people would consent to being punched in the face. Consent is an ongoing thing….it cannot be assumed based on a text or email.

That’s the most distressing part to me. How can emails and texts show consent. If in a real situation (not over electronic communication) a woman decides that she does not want to take part in hardcore BDSM, the email she wrote yesterday is meaningless. Very few people would consent to being punched in the face. Consent is an ongoing thing….it cannot be assumed based on a text or email.

Ali on October 27, 2014 at 11:03 PM How often do women get justice by reporting to the police. If the women consented there would be no need to seek justice. These women feel violated and want justice – not revenge .

How often do women get justice by reporting to the police. If the women consented there would be no need to seek justice. These women feel violated and want justice – not revenge .

Erica on October 28, 2014 at 2:42 PM Telling it to a trusted person and maintaining anonymity is a huge difference from going public and going through the legal process that can be just as violating and assaulting as the ordeal itself. Throw in the cyber bullying and it’s like being beaten and raped all over again.

Telling it to a trusted person and maintaining anonymity is a huge difference from going public and going through the legal process that can be just as violating and assaulting as the ordeal itself. Throw in the cyber bullying and it’s like being beaten and raped all over again.

brianmate on October 29, 2014 at 3:19 AM If you had ever tried to report an assault to the police you might be able to piece together the answer to that. Possibly the newspaper reporters didn’t treat them with contempt and/or humiliate them a second time?

If you had ever tried to report an assault to the police you might be able to piece together the answer to that. Possibly the newspaper reporters didn’t treat them with contempt and/or humiliate them a second time?

Mandy Fraser on October 27, 2014 at 3:14 PM Yes Jenny, thank you for pointing that out.

Yes Jenny, thank you for pointing that out.

mike on October 27, 2014 at 3:11 PM great read, interesting points. thank you.

great read, interesting points. thank you.

Burl on October 27, 2014 at 2:10 PM I tend to agree with you, but must point out that the CBC indeed tried to fire Sook-yin after her appearance in Shortbus! They are a rather prudish bunch there. However, this has nothing to do with them wanting to distance themselves from a (convincingly) alleged sexual sadist. Jen on October 27, 2014 at 2:12 PM I didn’t know that! Thank you! Jenny Henkelman on October 27, 2014 at 2:35 PM They tried but they didn’t succeed, in part because of public outcry. They realized Canadians are relatively live-and-let-live with regard to sex stuff. But these allegations aren’t just sex stuff – they’re about violence. Jen on October 27, 2014 at 2:48 PM Exactly right. The point stands. forgetthesePul on October 27, 2014 at 5:52 PM Nailed it!

I tend to agree with you, but must point out that the CBC indeed tried to fire Sook-yin after her appearance in Shortbus! They are a rather prudish bunch there.

However, this has nothing to do with them wanting to distance themselves from a (convincingly) alleged sexual sadist.

Jen on October 27, 2014 at 2:12 PM I didn’t know that! Thank you!

I didn’t know that! Thank you!

Jenny Henkelman on October 27, 2014 at 2:35 PM They tried but they didn’t succeed, in part because of public outcry. They realized Canadians are relatively live-and-let-live with regard to sex stuff. But these allegations aren’t just sex stuff – they’re about violence. Jen on October 27, 2014 at 2:48 PM Exactly right. The point stands. forgetthesePul on October 27, 2014 at 5:52 PM Nailed it!

They tried but they didn’t succeed, in part because of public outcry. They realized Canadians are relatively live-and-let-live with regard to sex stuff. But these allegations aren’t just sex stuff – they’re about violence.

Jen on October 27, 2014 at 2:48 PM Exactly right. The point stands.

Exactly right. The point stands.

forgetthesePul on October 27, 2014 at 5:52 PM Nailed it!

Nailed it!

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